Talkernate History – Red Storm Rising

max: Hello and welcome to Talkernate History, the podcast where we matt: Matt max: and Max talk about works of alternate history Alternate history scenarios and history in general This episode we’re going to be talking about What was at one point a work of speculative fiction and is now a work of alternate history and that’s Red Storm Rising matt: Yes Red Storm rising. This was written by Tom Clancy and A guy named Larry bond. This was published back in 1986 (max: yeah yeah) so before the fall of the Berlin Wall and the fall of the Soviet Union and and basically it’s about a non-nuclear Non-chemical World War 3 that’s fought in Western Europe in the North Atlantic max: yeah, this was the first Tom Clancy book I ever read and I thought it was pretty cool Apparently most of his books are in the same universe the “Jack Ryan” universe or whatever and this –matt: the Ryan-verse –max: the Ryan-verse And like this and SSN are like the I think only two ones that’re not set in there –matt: Yeah, I have read SSN as well It’s interesting because it’s almost like a war game scenario flushed out a little bit more –max: I mean very much so cuz the backstory of how this got written was that when Tom Clancy was writing The Hunt for Red October He picked up this war game called Harpoon, which was programmed by Larry Bond And he’s called up Larry Bond and was talking to him like, you know ‘tell me about this and tell me about that’ and eventually they got an idea for a World War 3 scenario and This kind of blossomed out of that so it can be like insanely Nitty-gritty in like the little sub to sub combat stuff that goes on. –matt: Yeah, it’s almost like like really lingers on it It’s more about – almost about the equipment more than –max: yeah –matt: all the other stuff but well max. Let’s go into the sort of the background of how do they how do we get to this? alternate situation where World War 3 is gonna be fought. –max: Right, right, so it was written in ’86, but it’s set in ’88 So things are ever so slightly different –matt: the future, Max, 1988? –max: Yeah, yeah and um kind of the inciting incident of The book is that in this gigantic collective-ised oil refinery, [pronounced incorrectly] Nizhnevartovsk? I think like four Azerbaijani guys just out of nowhere decide they’re gonna blow it up. So they like storm the control room. They shoot everybody They set the valves to maximum and then just blow up the whole thing in like this unbelievably large explosion It’s so large that like satellites see it and think that it might be a ballistic missile launch But as a result All this priceless fuel is like blown up and on fire –matt: mmhmm –max: and The Soviet Union is in a really tough Spot because of that because so much of their oil that they ran their electricity from and their power plants Is up in smoke now and they’re like, ‘what are we gonna do”, you know? –matt: Yes, and instead of saying ‘well, we’re gonna just have to buy oil From the West’ they decide it’s better that they want to occupy the Gulf states –max: right –matt: becuz they’ve oil But but first they’ve got to defeat and dismantle NATO –max: easy –matt: by invading West Germany –max: No problem. –matt: Yeah I’ve got a lot of issues – maybe we’ll address it later – a lot of issues with that plan is like… it’s like a cartoon villain’s plan –matt: Thi–this makes no sense –max: Because it’d just be too risky to buy it from the US cuz they could jack up the prices or whatever? so instead let’s just do the most insanely risky thing possible start two different international wars –matt: which by the way require lots of oil!! –max: lots of oil Yeah, which will become a problem later for them –matt: Oh God –max: but yeah, it’s so dumb. So they decide they’ll have this land war in Western Europe But as part of the plan. They’re not gonna use lots of nukes or chemical weapons or whatever. That’s like off the table –matt: That doesn’t feel very realistic –max: doesn’t feel very Soviet does it? –matt: yeah that they would be like no. No, we’re gonna fight this with a very limited rules of engagement –max: Yeah, one hand tied behind our backs the whole time. –matt: Yeah. Now this doesn’t… Strange and and yeah, so they build up to this conventional war. –max: Yeah, as part of the to build up to it. There’s like this attack that they do on themselves, the KGB concoct –matt: false flag yeah –max: yeah, this fake terrorist attack on the Kremlin that ends up like killing some kids and It’s used as this like inciting incident. They blame it on West Germany. It’s like ‘Germany’s trying to unify itself by force’ –matt: huh –max: So we’ve got to teach ’em a lesson. We got to occupy West Germany. –matt: Mm-hmm –max: and then not unite it –matt: Yeah, and then we’re gonna conquer the Middle East –max: this is so stupid –matt: Yeah, and I’m like, there’s some like the Soviets create a new version of that movie “Alexander Nevsky” –max: Yeah Yeah they do a special re-release of it with new music and stuff like Prokofiev’s score is redone and stuff and One of the main point of view characters is this guy named Robert Holland and he’s supposed to be like the CIA guy and he’s like ‘Oh, they put out Alexander Nevsky right before this German inciting incident. This must be some KGB plan or something.’ –matt: Uh-huh. Okay –max: Kind of 3d chess kind of thing. –matt: Mm-hmm But the war eventually does break out. I guess the big thing is that they launch this amphibious attack and Iceland. –max: Yeah What’s the name of the city?–matt: Keflavik? –max: Yeah, it’s a it’s Keflavik. They show up in this Cargo ship that’s been altered to look like an American cargo ship and it’s towing what look like barges But it’s then revealed to be hovercraft –matt: oh my god –max: They’ve got an entire division of like airborne troops inside of it and they just rush the base take it by surprise after it gets just a Deluge of missiles dropped on it from backfires and subs and stuff –matt: doesn’t this book really like missiles? –max: So many missiles in this book There’s a million friggin misses. –matt: Yes I learned that when you’re on a ship and you’re under missile attack the code word for it is ‘vampire’. “vampire! vampire!” ‘Oh, no, we we got fifty kingfishes heading towards us –matt: Oh shit –max: oh no –matt: Oh my goodness–max: which is so funny to like read this book after reading that Falkland Islands book –matt: The dreaded sea slug. ‘We’ve got 50 sea slugs heading our way!’ –max: The HMS Glamorgan is back! –matt: Exocets everywhere! –max: yeah, like one or two Exocets is like this big deal and there’s like 50 of the Russian equivalent like heading towards ships and stuff –matt: oh my goodness –max: Though they do have CIWSs now the little mini guns –max: the mini guns yeah –max: Which that was a big problem for the British, is that they didn’t have that, all they had was missile stuff. So, you know But in this book, they still have problems with like locking onto stuff when it’s too close together Like there’ll be two missiles coming and then neither of them will get shot down because it can’t make a lock and stuff –matt: oh wow. They do this. The Allies try to take Iceland back. And at first fail. launch a B-52 raid that gets defeated –max: Yeah, they start from Barksdale, but they don’t go straight from Barksdale. They stop over in like Canada or –matt: Yeah Gander probably –max: Gander? –matt: in Newfoundland Not ‘new found land’ Newfoundland –max: haha New Finland –matt: Hurray for Helsinki. –max: Yay, New Helsinki –matt: but …Helsinki West no – so also the Soviets launched a land invasion of Germany –max: Mm-hm And but the I guess the Allies or NATO, I guess you would call them, really managed to foil this. –max: Yeah –matt: pretty well –max: It’s kind of silly one of the Colonel’s has like information about it and he’s in Germany because he’s about to meet up with a team of Spetsnaz and they’re gonna knock out some radar dishes and stuff. But on the way there he gets hit by a car So they take him to the hospital and they pull an envelope out of his shirt and open it up and look at it’s like ‘oh crap. Oh no’ So they get fore-warning about it for a couple hours ahead of time –matt: that actually captures pretty well the vulgarities of life that really things like that do happen You know ya got this big plan in place and then something stupid like that happens –max: And that’s something I think this book does pretty well. just random chaotic stuff that nobody could have planned for becoming an issue. –matt: Mm-hmm. It’s a nature of warfare. But then also the Americans have this plane that doesn’t actually exist in reality but it’s like kind of modeled after something –max: Yeah, the F-19A Ghost Rider is what they call it in the book –matt: ghost riders –max: ghost rider yeah starring Nicolas Cage Ghost Rider 2: spirit of vengeance –matt: oh god –max: With Idris Elba. That’s a …what a film that is –matt: I’m sure I’ve never deigned to watch it –max: but um, so the f-19’s based on the –matt: F-117? –max: Yeah. Yeah, the Nighthawk the big weird boxy thing that looks like it’s from an arcade game or something. –matt: yeah. It’s like goofy. You see ’em like back during the first gulf war like, ‘yeah this thing’s the best!’ –max: Super advanced and now it’s like eh so much. –matt: Yeah, you know one gotta actually shot down by Serbia. –max: That’s right yeah –matt: in the ’90s. They put it up in a museum –max: Yeah, they did but this is like different from that because like the real F-117 is all boxy with with sharp angles everywhere And this is described as being sleek and curved and stuff like the nickname for it is “the frisbee” –matt: UFO –max: “the frisbees of dreamland” is the name of one of the Chapters because dreamland is the nickname for area 51 for like the you know Air Force and stuff –max: Interesting, so but I guess which it’s interesting is that the Soviets have their most success in this attack on Iceland –max: Yeah –Matt: where is like in Germany if they get blunted pretty quickly –max: It’s kind of the exact opposite of what people would expect where like you’d think that the land war would just be totally dominated by the Soviets but the Allies would own the Seas, but it’s the exact opposite here They get bogged down fighting the West Germans and stuff –matt: leopard 2s –max: Leopard 2s yes –max: Challengers, there’s challengers there. –matt: ah challengers. probably some Abramses thrown in –max: I think the only Soviet tank… they talk about the T-80 a whole lot and they don’t really talk about 72s or anything –matt: They would have had T-72s and T-80s. Yeah –max: BMPs there’s a lot of BMPs –matt: yeah –max: amphibious… –matt: armored personnel carriers –max: Screw you Brad- uh is a Bradley and armored personnel carrier –matt: yeah –max: or is it okay, okay Did the the Soviets still have like tank destroyers and stuff into the ’80s? –matt: nah, no they would’ve just had tanks I mean they had like there were some BMPs that had missiles on them like anti-tank missiles –max: Oh like tow missiles and stuff –matt: yeah saggers and stuff sagger, that was one type, yeah there was various types, but um yeah they did not have like SU-100s –max: 150 millimeter, you know. Oh my god, what is this? –matt: 152s –max: Is that the point of the main battle tank? that the tank just does everything? –matt: yeah the main battle tank does all things. It’s anti-tank it’s anti-personnel It’s heavy but it moves quickly. It can do everything So, yeah instead of you know having like heavy tanks, medium tanks, tank destroyers, all that jazz so uh… also the war’s fought in space, Max –max: oh god, that was the coolest thing for me about this book like I decided to read it because a commenter mentioned it and was talking about like ‘Oh, it goes into all sorts of cool things like satellite warfare’ and I thought that’s awesome. That is so cool. What a cool idea And it’s very well executed in this book. It’s awesome like uh the Soviets they they launch “kill vehicles” these like kamikaze satellites that just thrust into the American spy satellites and blow them up without any like Explosives just from sheer velocity –matt: Interesting. Yeah sort of like in uh, what is it? You Only Live Twice. the thing that steals the satellite it’s got like the big it’s got the big jaws –max: Yeah, it’s got like a –matt: oh it steals spaceships, excuse me, sorry –max: well Moonraker has the same thing they steal the the Moonraker of the title is like a uh Space shuttle that I think they steal at the beginning of the movie It’s like on a jumbo jet or something that blows up –matt: yes, that’s right The best James Bond movie –max: so good. I mean it’s that and You Only Live Twice… –matt: Octopussy –max Octopussy of course, of course –matt: For Your Eyes Only –max: For Your Eyes Only. yes. Is that the one that’s in Japan? With the… with the rocket bullet guns? –matt: No, that’s that’s You Only Live Twice –max: Nooooo –matt: Yes it is –max: really? Okay. huh –matt: that’s one where he has the cigarette that shoots the like explosive That’s the one with Blofeld and he’s got the cat and looks like the classic, you know, like what Dr. Evil’s modeled on –max: Live and Let Die another great one –matt: I actually like that one. –max: Yaphet Kotto –matt: that’s right yeah –max: the gun that inflates things –matt: Yeah –max: Somehow?? –matt: it somehow manages to inflate things that are not usual inflatables –max: like people –matt: like people. exactly. But back to Red Storm Rising –max: Red Storm Rising yeah –max: There’s landings in Norway, too. We don’t really see them, but they’re attacking from the Kola Peninsula Yeah, and they like –matt: too many fjords, my friend, too many –max: there are so many fjords I don’t think Finland is in this war, which would be helpful In the Scandinavian war here like like this very arbitrary border. That’s just kind of there that you can’t cross over Like I don’t know –matt: that’s right. Eventually Iceland gets retaken . –max: Yeah. Yeah there’s like a weatherman who works at the airbase there and he manages to slip away just in time before like the the Russians land and He runs off with a bunch of Marines and does Red Dawn stuff –matt: oh god –max: He’s got like a pistol grip transmitter He like points it at the American satellite and like talks to the guy His handler is in like Scotland or whatever and they have ’em like ‘go to these coordinates’ ‘look over and look in this direction’, you know –matt: huh interestling –max: ‘There’s some backfires landing at this Airport’. “Oh, you should do this or that” –matt: hmm. Interesting But ultimately it becomes I guess the war becomes a stalemate in Germany and the Politburo decides They’re gonna have to use tactical nukes and that’s just one step too far –max: Yeah Like the commander or whatever who’s starting to have some doubts, I think his name’s Sergetov he’s like ‘well in order to use these nukes, I’ll have to have total control of them’ because he thinks that’s gonna be like ‘oh ok, never mind’, but they’re like ‘sure. Yeah, no problem’. ‘not a big deal wherever you want them however, you want them’ he’s like that’s the moment. He’s like “I’m convinced. These guys are idiots. What is wrong with you people?” –matt: mm-hmm –max: and he colludes with like a couple other generals in the KGB to just take over the country in a coup –matt: Then they bring peace and then they start buying oil from the United States Good old American capitalism –max: and you know America doesn’t feel any hard feelings about this war. They’re happy to sell it to them at competitive prices You know, it’s not a problem. –matt: I got a deal for you. –max: I Know a man named Albert fall here, and he’s great at making deals Yeah, it’s uh it’s a pretty good book I liked it quite a bit there’s like a ton of POV characters so many that I kind of got them mixed up a lot –matt: Turtledove-esque you could say? –max: Yes. it’s quite Turtledove-esque except though one difference from Turtledove is that if this was a Turtledove book half the book would be about a guy talking about moving refrigerators or whatever –matt: and then be like ‘oh and by the way Iceland was just captured by the soviets’ –max: ‘I just listened to the wireless and I hear Iceland’s been captured’ –matt: the moving picture wireless –max: You know, I love Harry absolutely love –matt: oh I do too –max: and you know, like I in a lot of ways I think that that slice of life stuff is maybe even superior to this kind of book but I think this book does what it does very well the whole nitty gritty like Tactical crap stuff that I don’t understand what the heck they’re talking about with subs and stuff. –matt: Mm-hmm –max: They talk about so many different types of submarines and I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about Oliver class. Akula-Class. –matt: yeah I…I don’t… We don’t have any point of reference because it’s like there wasn’t any war that used these subs So it’s who cares, you know? –matt: Yeah. Well, it was a very specialized set of knowledge. Wasn’t, you know, general knowledge –max: But I think there’s only two submarine caused Sinkings of major ships after WWII. One is in the Falklands War the HMS Conqueror. –matt: Yes –max: yes, and number two is like some… in the war between India and Pakistan There was some sinking of some ship. I don’t know the name of it, but that’s literally it That’s all there is. So I mean, there’s not much –matt: That we know of, Max –max: that we know the secret, yes, secret stuff, black ops nuclear submarines You know when we fought the the underwater UFOs, you know –matt: that’s right –max: right That I learned about from History Channel –matt: Yes well, let’s let’s just talk about maybe our observations about this which is I gotta say this plan sounds insane –max: Yeah –matt: It sounds like the dumbest thing that you could possibly imagine that you would put your honor so far ahead of just buying oil that you’d rather kill like Ten… probably tens of thousands if not more of your own citizens and caused a huge wreck and spend all of the oil you may have saved up really quickly on what is just like a crazy like Indiana Jones plan. –max: Like it’s putting the cart before the horse Really. You just make them a much bigger problem than like, ‘Oh we have to ration electricity for the next three years’ –matt: It’s the Soviet Union. they’re gonna –max: yeah, they’re huge. They have so much resources –matt: I know which I find so weird that destroying one oil refinery would like a crippled one country. –max: Well, they kinda explain… they make an explanation that like oh this refinery is like a super refinery It’s super super big and they only have so many in their whole country. But you know, there’s like a bunch of technobabble Explaining it, which I’m sure it’s maybe not 100% accurate It’s just to mystify you into accepting. Okay, whatever this I mean, I guess this makes sense –matt: Yeah –max: and what Gulf state are they gonna take over? [in unison] all of all of them? –matt: Iran? Iraq? Kuwait? Saudi Arabia? Oman? Trucial Oman? –max: Qatar? –matt: also known as the U.A.E –max: Oh, what? –matt: Trucial Oman that’s what it used to be called. –max: The other Oman, huh Does South Yemen still existed at this point? –matt: I think it does yeah –max: well, they’re Soviet aligned aren’t they? –matt: Yeah. –max: Yeah Iraq, they’re kind of soviet aligned. Syria. I don’t know how much oil Syria has but Was Venezuela? did they have their Bolivar-ian revolution at that point –matt: I don’t think so –max: okay Alright, I can’t really remember –matt: They gotta go through Turkey –max: Turkey. Okay. –matt: Yeah, your most direct route is to Iran, which is not probably In the ’80s gonna just be like, ‘okay guys, come on through’. –max: ‘There you go.’ Yeah, it’s totally ridiculous. I mean, okay So, what’s your goal in this war? All right, attacking Western Europe right? to destroy NATO how… when does the war end? When you occupy Western Germany? Do you have to push all the way to Paris? to London? Like when does this? When is the war over you know? –matt: Yeah –max: because they could just keep on fighting tooth and nail –matt: Exactly. Well, it just seems… this doesn’t sound like a particularly well thought-out plan. –max: No not at all! –matt: and the fact that the Soviets are like ‘this war would only be fought in Europe’ like not thinking about the Pacific –max: well in this story in like the set up because of their false flag thing a lot of NATO states take that as justification to nor get involved. They’re like ‘well NATO only works when a NATO country is attacked first’ If a NATO country attacks Russia first, then I’m not obligated to join so since Western Germany in this scenario “attacked” Russia It’s like ‘well I don’t have to’ –matt: Why would everyone believe that? –max: Because they want to believe it. because they don’t want to get involved with World War III –matt: oh I think actually it’s called plot armor –max: there’s that too yeah –matt: has to happen –max: yeah because of that South Korea and Japan don’t get involved so it’s like, okay No, Pacific don’t have to worry about that. –matt: We don’t need the self-defense force. Anyway –max: yeah self offense force more like it But that could have been cool if they included the Pacific but at that point your scope is getting so big that maybe it’s just Too damn complicated. –matt: That’s true yeah, but um –max: but I’m sure the Soviets had subs and stuff in the Pacific that they could use they got bases in like Kamchatka or whatever. So –matt: yeah, I don’t know. Yeah. No, it seems pretty Pretty strange. –max: Yeah. Yeah –matt: but what I do find interesting, is that what this does posit is Is that the idea that just haunted NATO planners for 40 years, which is the idea of a ground war in Central Europe the thing that, which is interesting, about this thing you kind of mentioned it earlier, is that this is when I you talk about alternate stuff is that I feel like it kind of reverses it because usually you’d think that that the Soviets would dominate the land Because that was what the Americans kind of assumed We’re gonna have to use nuclear weapons because the amount of forces that we have positioned in Germany just simply is not enough To hold back a Russian invasion like “Warsaw Pact” invasion is just gonna overrun everything –max: and once you start using nukes I mean kind of the gloves are off right there you know –matt: The fact that the American would result to using tactical nukes in this situation is pretty shocking. –max: Yeah –matt: That’s what you think Cuz like in that steel Panthers game I mentioned before there’s a bunch of scenarios where it’s like the Soviets invade in the 1980s and it’s just forever if you play as the Americans or the French or the Germans or the British or whatever it’s just you’re overwhelmed just left and right just it’s just like this onslaught of like it’s just sheer numbers at every turn and you’re just like boom buh buh buh, buh You’re just trying to shoot everything, but you can’t you know–max: and I mean their equipment is great. You know, it’s good –matt: Well, it wasn’t like the Soviets were using a bunch of t-34 is like I mean they had good good equipment I mean a t-80 was a good tank. is a good tank. they still use them I think although t-90s and there’s some new thing that’s replacing it as well But you know, that’s what I do like that They have that scenario because that’s what planner they were just obsessed about and if you look at the American position in Western Europe I don’t know if it would have been strong enough to hold back a Soviet invasion –max: Well, if you read the book team Yankee, it’ll tell you that a single tank can.. Just joking, but I mean, that’s another that’s another land war in Europe cold-war kind of thing. Is it the same time period? I read part of it. I never finished it –matt: Yeah, I read it. it was… Yeah mid to late-1980s. I think in Team Yankee the Abrams has a 105 millimeter gun, which is earlier I think it’s 86 or 88 when the 120 millimeter Abrams comes into service. –max: did they use those? exclusively in the Gulf War? or was it a mix of both? –matt: I think was mostly 120 But I think the 105 also made some appearances –max: interesting. Okay –matt: Yeah rifled 105 smoothbore 120 –max: Huh? –matt: Because the gun on an Abrams is basically the gun from a leopard 2 –max: Okay. Okay, so –matt: Well, the British Challenger uses a rifled 120 millimeter gun –max: so what’s the difference –matt: so I’ve been told for the big guns Is that the smoothbore allows a much wider range of ammunition to be used. –max: Okay, so you can put your Flechettes in there or whatever –matt: I guess so. Yeah You’d think the rifling would make it better, but I guess they they use it …Smoothbore has some advantage –max: does one has a muzzle brake…–matt: you can shoot a big cannonball out it boom. get ‘cha chain-shot, boys. Give Saddam some a the ol’ chain-shot grape-shot! –max: loading grape-shot, loading canister –matt: Well, they do have the beehive rounds but –max: oh, yeah, but is that the flechettes or is that?–matt: flechettes yeah –max: Okay –matt: which is functional canister –max: shoot leaflets at them. –matt: Yeah that actually happened in a there was a guy in the Vietnam War who won a medal of honor who was like, it was like a firebase it was attacked in the Mekong Delta and he was like an artilleryman and He he was, you know, use using like beehive rounds against theses human wave attacks by the Vietcong and he like ran out of ammunition at the end. He fired the last round he had was like a bunch of leaflets It’s like fired a bunch of them at that, –max: huh. Was this from artillery or from a patton? –matt: 105. 105 artillery. –max: I see okay –matt: ‘Take that!’, ‘maybe this’ll stop you, convince you to embrace American capitalism!’ but um this is’nt…I do like that it addresses the nature of this and also how vulnerable like Iceland something like that is because if you take Iceland you’re sitting right on the Quickest transportation route by air from the United States to Western Europe. –max: Yeah I mean when I was first reading and I was thinking ‘Iceland really?’ like ‘what?’ until I looked at it on a map and stuff and it’s like, ‘oh ok’ I kind of seen I kind of see why that’s so bad because it’s so close to the UK and all ships have to go through that area unless you’re going through the channel — matt: and if you fly to Western Europe usually that’s the route you take if you’re gonna like London or Paris or whatever like it goes kind of curves up near Iceland you know the planes, I think they always have that thing in the headset, like you press like ‘where’s the map’ and you can see the plane is it kind of flies up near there. –max: Mm-hmm. –matt: So they don’t just fly straight across the Atlantic –max: Yeah, not in a straight line because the world is a sphere–matt: you know…–max: point A to point B –matt: Well, according to you –max: according to me, that’s just my opinion. –matt: that’s just your opinion –max: right –matt: Ice walls, max –max: oh right yes yes. The inner earth –matt: no but also because it also keeps you kind of near land So if you have an emergency, it’s better to ditch or try and get to Iceland than, you know, whoops middle the Atlantic –max: there you go –matt: rogue waves and all that good stuff –max: Sargasso Sea, you know –matt: we have to get to the Azores –max: Bermuda here I come let me think –matt: Bermuba –max: Bermuba? –matt: that was from Documentary Now episode. The one right where they’re the globe salesmens Like go to the kids house, and they’re talking to some kid, and he’s like “This Globe’s wrong.” and He’s like “no, it’s right” and he’s like “It says Bermuba” and then like he points to it and it says ‘Bermuba’ That’s a great series by the way, I’m a big fan –max: something that kinda I thought was weird about this book is the fact that the word Soviet and Russian are synonymous in this book It’s just like ‘the Russians’ this ‘the Russians that’ –matt: yeah –max: But you don’t hear about oh the 1st Ukrainian front or whatever. –matt: I think by that point they had changed it –max: So everything’s mixed? They’re all mixed together? –matt: I think it’s just like army. It’s like you know 4th front, 7th Army, 10th guards tank division –max: So the the Warsaw Pact members, I don’t entirely understand this, but some of them are like sovereign nations separate from the Soviet Union. –matt: yes –max: Poland is not part of the Soviet union –matt: yes –max: So is Poland sending troops to fight in this? are they obligated to or not? –matt: I would guess they would be I mean, that’s what the American planners always assumed in These Cold War plans is that it would be a general attack by the Warsaw Pact –max: In any case you gotta allow them access through your country. –matt: Yeah –max: I guess right? I mean you’d have to –matt: I don’t think they would be standing on the sidelines at least East Germany wouldn’t be –max: yeah Which is also funny that like the justification of this war is German aggression. German nationalism And it’s like you got half of Germany in your sphere –matt: but the good half, Max –max: the good half. Yeah –matt: the good old GDR –max: or DDR depending on who you ask. Deutschland Democratic Republic –matt: [mumbling] Deutschland Democratic Republic –max: Deutsche Deutsche Revolution –matt: East Germany –max: They have a song “The Party is Always Right” that was like one of the the anthems which is such a stupid thing to say –matt: the socialist kiss of friendship –max: What is it Erich Honecker? –matt: Honecker Yeah and [in unison] Brezhnev –matt: getting a little too close there –max: Yeah, that’s pretty weird –max: Even at the time I think that was pretty weird to be two world leaders kissing each other on the mouth –matt: On the mouth yeah, because there are some cultures like you know in like French, in like the French culture men will sometimes greet each other by like kissing themselves like kissing each other –max: Kiss myself! –matt: By kissing each other on the cheek, a non-family member kiss on the cheek But like I don’t know if any cultures that, you know, men who don’t know each other greet each other by kissing each other on the lips –max: Oh, no. No, they know each other. They’re they’re very respectful of one another –max: So weird, and I think there’s a couple other pictures of Brezhnev doing that to some other people and stuff Oh and that was part of the sino-soviet split was that their diplomats stopped kissing each other Don’t kiss the Chinese diplomat anymore. –matt: uh oh –max: it’s verboten now –matt: Mao says, no –max: they’re not our fraternal socialist allies anymore –max: Gotta keep it to the cheeks. Don’t… –matt: no lips, the lips aren’t in play –matt: no tongue No, um I mean, it’s very kind of focused on the military side But it is interesting the idea that the Soviet Union, although I feel like any Soviet Justification for this of war would be some sort of breakdown in relations with the West. It wouldn’t be like ‘oil! oil!’ –max: I need that oil. –matt: They read the book “Oil!” and were like we need some of this. –max: That sounds like a great idea I would love to have that. So yeah. Yeah, maybe like a more plausible thing would be maybe NATO would do something bad or maybe provocational or whatever and then that would lead to this breakdown this whole resource thing is just kind of silly. Doesn’t make sense. Plus, you know Like okay, let’s say you attack these Gulf States or whatever What’s the first thing they’re gonna do? blow up their oil wells. blow up their refineries. So you got the you got the same problem again I mean, maybe it would work in the first country that you take over but they’re gonna catch the hint after that you know –matt: Put down the ak-47, pull out your wallet, pulled out some of those nice rubles –max: Pay up –matt: Rubbles –max: Rubbles I think there’s other ….Barney Rubble …There’s that yeah, I think there’s other Cold War Hot books kind of like this out there –matt: There are there’s like one called like World War 3. I think I’ve looked through part of it I remember there’s like a map in it and it tracks the progress. different maps. one of them shows the Soviets and like the Netherlands. like the British just do a terrible job of repulsing the Soviets the Americans, like, kind of hold them back, but the British are just like, “whoops” [dog barks] –max: well sorry –matt: they’re just too distracted fighting the war in Argentina. trench warfare –max: Perfect timing. Oh no Yeah, like I guess you could have like a situation where for whatever reason the United States just doesn’t want to do it and all the European allies have to …I don’t know. That’s ridiculous. I know, but –matt: yeah –max: for wargaming purposes. –matt: Yeah, they’d be even worse off I think a lot of American strategic planners believed basically, we’re gonna lose a lot of Western Europe, if the Soviets attack us That’s why we have to keep up with like airpower and you know if you think about it A lot of the American ground equipment wasn’t really the equivalent of the Soviets until late in the Cold War –max: really? –matt: I mean look at Soviet tanks in the ’60s versus like American tanks –max: okay –matt: Yeah, you had maybe the 105 m60 Patton, but there weren’t a lot of them You’re still relying heavily on the m48 which had a 90 millimeter gun Which wasn’t even sufficient to take out some German tanks in World War 2 let alone a 262 I’m not very familiar with the M48 you said? –matt: m48 has like a weird interesting muzzle brake on the front –max: Hmm. So he’s it like a Sherman? like what is it? Like does it look like a Patton tank? –matt: No, it looks like a Patton –max: Okay. Okay –matt: they use them in uh… not in the patton movie because those are m47 Pattons the earlier model that this Germans use and the Americans use the Walker bulldogs –matt: No one can use a freakin Sherman tank they were… people were living who are from then they’re living now They can tell you what tanks we were using not pattons –max: not pattons they were still using Sherman tanks all over the world at that point in South America and Israel and stuff in the ’60s –matt: Sherman the m41 into the ’70s Super Shermans –max: super Super Duper Shermans up-scaled to 120 millimeters –matt: 100…105 Yeah, they put a 105 millimeter gun on them, which probably made for a pretty damn cramped turret –max: I imagine god tanks look like a nightmare to be inside of one of those Like I was looking at pictures at the inside of a t-80. –matt: Mm-hmm. –max: It’s just Oh God. Well, it’s so cramped and tiny –matt: I’ve been inside the inside of two tanks. been inside a chieftain and I’ve been inside a world war one mark four which… Nightmare. That would be a nightmare to be inside –max: especially because there’s like 12 other guys inside –matt: yeah, and then the chieftain is like, buttons everywhere and switches and you..ooh I’m gonna hit something And in the heat imagine being in one alone in the desert –max: The thing that blows my mind is that back in WWII the only Navy that had air conditioning Inside of submarines was the Americans and nobody else had refrigeration or air conditioning –matt: sounds like a lot of salt pork –max: Salt pork that goes bad, bread that gets soggy and moldy and stuff just… Sounds horrible, it’s hot and it smells awful just a nightmare and that’s something I was thinking about in this book is like that must be the most, the worst thing in the world being in a submarine that gets torpedoed and sunk –matt: well you’re gonna die pretty quick probably. –max: Well, that’s true but still Pretty scary –matt: not great. –max: Yeah –matt: not ideal. –max: Yeah. –matt: So um, no, it’s uh, no it’s interesting but it’s I think this this raises interesting questions, and I think the Americans do better than perhaps they may have done but who knows? –max: Yes –matt: it’s an un-fought war –max: part of the fun is that Nothing goes according to plan, you know, no plan survives contact with the enemy So the way things are supposed to go it can go radically different just depending on tiny little things something that’s kind of neat, unlike how the Warsaw Pact is not really presented very well in this book, the Allies, the NATO allies do get their own little niches and roles and stuff like that West Germans and the British and even the Belgians are fighting –matt: Yes –max: the mighty Belgians. Did they have a significant military back then? Obviously, they don’t have much of one now –matt: Probably not much bigger than it is Now, maybe somewhat bigger, but you know, it’s interesting enough Is that what people don’t realize is that most Western European Countries had mandatory conscription until not that long ago –max: really? –matt: like Italy had mandatory conscription until like 2002. –max: Are you for real? –matt: Yeah, and some countries like Norway it Switzerland still have it Yeah, if you look at countries with mandatory conscription, it’s most Western European countries. France had it until like I think the ’80s or ’90s Spain had it for a long time Britain ended it in 1960 was actually relatively early that the draft ended for like Britain in the US the Netherlands had mandatory conscription, West Germany, all the Warsaw Pact countries certainly did but like I think Sweden, and then Norway, and Denmark may still have mandatory conscription I know Finland definitely does – that makes the most sense, Finland, because They’re right next to Russia and they’re not a member of NATO. So they’re defenseless if they can’t defend themselves. Mm-hmm, but like Denmark that seems weird –matt: it’s gonna get overrun pretty quick. –max: Yeah for real Are the Baltic states? are they members of NATO? or are they? –matt: now they are –max: now they are? wow –matt: Yeah, Latvia and Lithuania and Estonia I think are –max: Wow, okay and they’re They border at least some of them border Russia on both sides because of Kaliningrad –matt: yeah Lithuania does yeah –max: Isn’t that place packed with nukes or something? or packed with tanks? –matt: is it? It may be. –max: I think it’s got a big military. –matt: I think they do have a very big military base old Kaliningrad –max: aka –matt: aka East Prussia –max: Yeah, Koenigs…Konigsberg? Old is kenigsberg is now Kaliningrad. –max: Yeah –matt: this little exclave So strange, you know, it’s so interesting that they held on to and they just didn’t give it to like Lithuania or something. Okay –max: No, we’ll be holding on to this. Thank you very much. –matt: this belongs to us now. –max: That’s an interesting thing I’d like to know more about that who lives there? –matt: after this we could look it up –max: we could look it up Yeah, that’s true. That’s true. Oh oh, oh something else about this book that I thought was interesting is that the Soviets don’t attack the United States in any way outside of Europe when you know they probably should –matt: you figure they would –max: yeah blow up the Panama Canal –mattt: Attack Alaska or the west coast or the East Coast or something. –max: Yeah, exactly Shoot some missiles at refineries and you know… –matt: in the era of total war why would you say we’re just putting aside there’ll be no attacks on the enemy’s capital. We’re just gonna settle this for good and all with with real military force instead of –max: Roll our sleeves up and have a good old fair fight –matt: Yeah, instead of like doing what you do which is like cripple the enemy’s ability like attack their command-and-control cuz that’s like that was so shocking I think about the first Gulf War is that then live TV watching, you know? You’re just crippled command-and-control you attack that so then you soften them up We’re no longer gonna be like, we’re just rolling in and seeing what happens It’s like no, we’re gonna reduce their their system to ashes and then we attack –max: right, right There’s a really fun thing, apparently for the f-15, There was a missile called the called the ASM 135 ASAT was the name of it –matt: Anti-satellite. –max: Anti-satellite. Yeah, they would go in what’s called a zoom climb? it gets super super high up and then release it and that’s like You know when you have like a space vehicle or whatever, there’s multiple stages to rocket the f-15 is stage one And then stage two is the actual burner on the missile or whatever and it goes up into space and blows the thing up we tested It one time. –matt: it works, right? –max: Yeah, it worked. It worked. like 1985 I think it was and then there was like a global ban Anti-satellite weapons, which was then broken by china like in 2007 I think it was they blew up a satellite and there’s still debris from that explosion in orbit right now And it’s like tracked and logged –matt: yeah when you blow up something in space, it’s gonna stay there It’s not gonna fall it doesn’t fall back down to the ground, –max: which is like a problem. I think it’s called Kessel syndrome Where you have so much crap in orbit flying around Colliding with other stuff making more crap in orbit It’s just this cascade this exponential increase in like crap that you have to keep track of and eventually spaceflight becomes extremely dangerous –matt: I wonder how we’ll deal with that actually –max: just be really careful I guess? don’t go get into a global war where you blow up everybody’s satellites. That’s step one –matt: Mm-hmm –max: But like that movie “Gravity” just a little tiny… like a nut, like a bolt, that’s thrown off into space If it collides with something orbiting in the opposite direction. It can be catastrophic, you know, just tear this thing apart. –matt: Yeah the velocities you’re talking in orbit are so insanely high. –max: Yeah, and it’s like talk about a bullet I mean a bullet’s about the same size. It goes like a fraction of the speed is these things –matt: super bullet. –max: super bullet, Yeah and my favorite character in the book. the one who shoots that thing off is Amelia, Nakamura She’s this F15 pilot. That is a ferry pilot. That’s like carrying planes over across the ocean for other people to use and then she like takes a commercial flight back and then flies back again On the way across the ocean. She she comes across some badgers and She all she has is a single –matt: Oh the flying ones–max: the flying ba…not not like –matt: good ol’ animal, furry animals
–max: or like … –matt: The Wisconson Badgers. She has to fight the Wisconson Badgers –max: Their lacrosse team is going across the ocean Like she, all she has is a sidewinder missile and her Vulcans and she like shoots down two of them and then later she shoots down two satellites so she becomes an ace. –matt: Well. no, you have to get five kills to be an Ace. –max: Oh okay, sorry, she shoots down three planes and then two satellites They make a joke about her being the first ‘Space Ace’ because of that –matt: It’s like how he’s shooting down observation balloons In WWI –max: Does that count? –matt: Yes –max: what? –matt: You never heard of balloon busters? –max: No –matt: so back in WWI they had these things that’re called observation balloons. They’re kind of like sausage shaped They didn’t look like round. They’re like sausage shape –max: dirigible shape –matt: Sort of like that and they would have am observer who would sit in it They would go kind of high up about 5 – 10,000 feet or whatever and they would, maybe a little bit lower, but they would observe the other side and they would have a telephone wire that ran down and it would call and be like “I see troops gathering at these coordinate so artillery came bombard it” so they tended to be very heavily defended sometimes by planes but very often by anti-aircraft guns –max: which if you’re having explosions go off right next to you. That’s probably a little dangerous for the balloon, man –matt: Oh, yeah, you know they were considered exceptionally dangerous targets to attack And they would they would attack them and destroy them, set them on fire, and they often used explosive dum-dum sort of bullets… –max: Oh, wow –matt: to like light them on fire If you destroyed one and you were a pilot It was counted as part of your score and some of them became like specialists in attacking they called them ‘Balloon Busters’ And those were people who destroyed five or more balloons on their own –max: wow –matt: I think the most was some guy destroyed like 35 –max: geeze. Sucks for the guy who has to be in that basket –matt: Yes, because a lot of them are filled with hydrogen so…you know So you’d jump out but interesting enough an interesting fact about this. So in WWI Allied Pilots were not issued parachutes, even though there were experimental parachutes that existed German pilots in 1918 after, I think it was May or June, actually were issued it so there were German pilots who successfully completed parachute jumps however on both sides Balloon observers were issued parachutes –max: huh So Allied and German so they could sometimes jump out of them In fact in the great war series, Jonathan Moss destroys a balloon and then he machine guns the para… the guy in the parachute because they were a steady line parachute set. You didn’t pull a ripcord You just jumped out and then you know the line got pulled and –max: interesting –matt: Yeah –max: so did they have handles or were you just like hanging? –matt: I don’t know. I don’t think they had handles I think you had just held onto like –max: that’s a dangerous landing. You can’t roll like you do –matt: Well, I mean look at WWII, they didn’t have handles. They would just grab the rigging. –max: Oh, okay. Yeah, right. All right I guess that’s right. What about dirigible crew did they get parachutes? –matt: I don’t think so –max: Oh God –matt: zeppelins Well, you know the Germans were mainly the ones who used dirigibles Although the Allies apparently had dirigibles they did use for like naval stuff. –max: Okay. that makes sense. –matt: Like the German Zeppelin’s Yeah, although people did shoot down Zeppelins –max: you told me that a guy got a Victoria Cross for doing that. –matt: Yeah one or two I think at least one –max: they’ve dropped bombs–matt: drop bombs on it. Yeah, they’d fly over and drop bombs. –max: That’s great –matt: But uh yeah zeppelins –max: watch out for ’em –matt: But the really thing is the Germans started using something called Gotha bombers starting at 1917 and that was actually the big –max: could they go across the channel? –matt: Oh, yeah! they wouldn’t want attack London and South East England –max: what? –matt: Yeah –max: that’s insane. Oh my god. That’s ridiculous. –matt: Oh, yeah no It’s interesting That there was like the war in the kind of on the English Channel the they would launch from Belgium place called Zeebrugge Which is near Bruges. It’s like the port of Bruges. It’s a little bit separated from the city But yeah, stuff like that So there was a lot of fighting around there around Ostend and stuff like that –max: where the manifesto was written. –matt: That’s right. Yeah. –max: Cuba Yeah –matt: Yes No, so interesting at least in my opinion but um, there you go now, you know about observation balloons –max: Are there any other non-airplane things that you can shoot down to become an ace? –matt: helicopters now –max: really? –matt: There’s people who shot down helicopters and apparently there’s a case of a helicopter shooting down a fighter plane Apparently an Israeli pilot helicopter shot down like a Syrian MIG –max: How?? Oh God –matt: got behind him in a dog fight –max: Well, you know and then Rambo he became an ace for ramming his tank into that –matt: oh yeah, that’s right Dedicated to the brave Mujahideen fighters. –matt: Yeah, who we will soon be fighting very soon. –max: It’s just a couple decades. –matt: Yeah –max: But okay helicopters. –matt: Yeah in that movie… can I just comment? –max: sure –matt: he runs that whole damn tank by himself because at one point he’s shooting the gun But he misses it and like he’s shooting the gun, driving, and shooting the machine gun and yes Soviet tanks at the time had auto loader systems for their guns, but how the hell is he aiming the gun and driving it? It’s not like a video game. Like people, separate people do separate things in tanks –max: and who’s working the radio for God’s sake –matt: yes –max: Oh, no, I’m kidding Who’s giving the flag signals, you know? Oh –matt: oh my goodness, what a great film –max: a great film. –matt: Mmm, not my favorite Rambo –max: no –matt: didn’t another one just come out recently? –max: Last Blood Yeah, I don’t know anything about it other than it’s set in Mexico. I think it is –matt: is it…? –max: yeah, it’s like he’s fighting cartel members or something –matt: of course he is –matt: oh, Rambo –max: they made a children’s cartoon Rambo series –matt: I know! I’ve seen it! You can actually find it on YouTube, some of it –max: how bizarre what a bizarre thing. –matt: Yeah. –matt: Oh 27% on the tomato-meter for Last Blood. Yeah, that’s not that’s not a good sign –matt: “almost four decades after they drew first blood, Sylvester Stallone is back as one of the greatest action heroes of all time. John Rambo.” –max: Who’s they? –matt: Oh, that’s right after ‘They’ …THEY drew first blood –max: right –matt: Not him –max: not me Those cops here in Vermont? Is it set in Vermont? –matt: No it was Washington State, although the book is set in Kentucky –max: what ok –matt: Oh my goodness, the book, you, if you ever have a chance to read the book First Blood I don’t know if I’ve ever given it to you. –max: I think I borrowed it in college briefly. Yeah, –matt: well if you haven’t read it, I’ll let you. It is like… cuz in the movie Rambo is like ‘I’m running away’ like ‘they can’t catch me.’ In the book he’s like killing everybody like with steaks and shooting them and dropping people off cliffs And it’s like ‘yikes’ and gutting people with knives and blowing just kills everyone in the town and blows it up at the end It’s it’s just a little dark –max: Speaking of dark let’s say this war actually happened this Red Storm Rising war like imagine all the environmental problems from that. like in the book dozens of nuclear submarines get sunk –mat: uh oh –max: runaway nuclear reactors everywhere in the ocean –matt: uh oh –max: like what? I’m not an I’m not a physicist or whatever, but that seems really dangerous –matt: Yes, that does –max: like I know like in real nuclear reactors they put the rods underwater and the radiation can’t get past like just a couple feet of water but like Fish can swim down there next to those reactions they can get irradiated and then caught and then eaten So like it’s just a complete disaster. –matt: gonna have a mega fish –max: it’s the set up for the sy-fy channel movie of the week –matt: Yeah exactly “Rock Monster” some rocks got irradiated and now they’re alive! –max: Moby Dick: 2 –matt: There’s a Moby Dick set in space. –max: What? –matt: Yeah –max: okay –matt: Space whale –max: Space whale so is it like in Star Wars where there’s the giant worm in space? or is it like? –matt: I don’t know –max: I don’t know. Okay, –max: it’s the syfy channel. You really shouldn’t ask a whole lot of questions because they don’t know the answer –max: That’s a very good point. You know Reagan liked this book. –matt: Did he? — max: Yeah, he said that it was… –matt: as much as jelly beans? –max: Does he like jelly beans? –matt: He loved jelly beans , Max –max: I didn’t know that. any particular flavor? –matt: I don’t know. Now that I’m not sure of –max: They’re Okay. –matt: They’re not my favorite thing. –max: Yeah, not mine either
they’re all right, I guess but he sent a copy to Margaret Thatcher and was like ‘you should read this. This is really good.’ There was also a video game adaptation of this game –matt: Of course. I’ve looked at videos. –matt: If there’s a Longbow Apache video game then. There’s a video game for this –max: I’ve watched some videos on YouTube. It looks interesting. It’s all sub stuff. It’s none of the tank or anything –matt: subs talking about subs. –max: Yeah? –matt: Not just the kind with provolone on them. –max: Not the ones that cost $5 and are footlong –matt: I’m talking about SSN this other independent one he had –max: oh yeah –matt: It’s a bout a war America fights with China over the Spratly Islands in the ’90s and is about this submarine and basically it could be called “Awesome American Submarine: The Book” Because it just goes around and it sinks… and it’s like gradients every type of Chinese submarine It goes against is harder than the one before. Then there’s like the big boss submarine at the end It’s like “yeah!” like basically everyone in the book should just be walking around with little American flags in their hands –max: Is it good though? –matt: It was fine. –max: Ok –matt: it’s actually a quick read It’s like, maybe, 200 pages and easily readable in a day –max: not this one This is like a 1,000 pages Red Storm Rising –matt: He writes long books –max: Yeah –matt: Well, he did write long books. –max: That’s true. Well some… I mean they still put his name on stuff to this day. Like Tom Clancy’s Rainbow Six. –matt: That’s right Rainbow six Tom Clancy’s Ghost Recon, you know all this stuff. He had nothing. He has nothing to do with them now –matt: Yeah specially now. –max: Yeah, well now that he has passed away Yeah, but he actually he like started his own video game company –matt: really? –max: Red Storm entertainment yeah –matt: from ahh I see –max: Yes, I think maybe the most famous thing they did was the original Rainbow six game. –matt: Mm-hmm I remember that –max: it came out contemporaneously with the book. It was like a it was like a double thing. –matt: Oh, wow. Yeah. –max: It’s pretty crazy –matt: probably blocky and… –max: Yeah, looking at it nowadays. It looks kind of primitive but I hear it’s it holds up I hear it’s kind of –matt: Just like if you ever played The Tomorrow Never Dies video game primitive I actually owned that believe it or not. –matt: I like Goldeneye better. –max: Yeah. Mine’s got the blockbuster sticker still on it It was one of those –matt: If only you said Hollywood video. I’d really be impressed. My parents still have a copy of The Rocketeer from Blockbuster that they never took back –matt: wow –max: They paid they paid like the $20 for it or whatever –matt: Okay, was it on VHS? –max: yeah –matt: I remember going and getting stuff on VHS at Blockbuster and Hollywood Video. –max: That was fun oh, VHS –max: your mom’s like ‘you can pick out one movie’ and it’s like –matt: we gotta rent this Oh, yeah, ‘let’s look at this disinterested teenagers working here’. ‘What’s a good movie to watch? ”I don’t care.’ –max: like you base your movie selection entirely upon the cover. –matt: Yeah, pretty much –max: does it look cool? Does it not look cool? Yeah, when you’re a kid, you think stuff like “Home Alone 3 is the best movie I’ve ever seen” –max: That was incredible. “Dunston Checks In” –matt: “Dunston checks in” –max: you know, you get what you what’s right on the tin You know Dunston checked in. it was. it was amazing. –matt: He did check in –max: Yeah, Jason Alexander –matt: but did they do a horror movie? did Dunston ever…. check out? –max: That’s pretty good –max: Well, that’s what the Edgar Allan Poe story murders in the Rue Morgue one of the first detective stories of all time written back in the 1800s and the murderer, spoiler alert for anybody who hasn’t read the story –matt: read it in the last 170 years –max: But the murder is an orangutan A monkey kills the the murder victim. Like the monkey has a knife, stabs somebody, and then climbs up the chimney and they somehow they figure that out. –matt: Hmm. Also his stories inspired that Edgar Allan Poe movie with John Cusack –max: So did he play Edgar Allen Poe or? –matt: I think so –max: Okay, –max: I couldn’t even –max: yeah –max: I vaguely remember that coming out –matt: Danny Trejo once said the celebrity he’s most scared of his John Cusack –max: what? –matt: I know –max: not himself? look at himself in the mirror? –matt: A man who’s actually been to San Quentin. like literally –max: Yeah, that guy’s no joke you watch Spy Kids, and he seems like such a nice guy, but –matt: Then you watch Spy Kids 2 There’s one with Sylvester Stallone. –max: That’s right. –matt: talk about Rambo. Yeah, I know there’s Spy Kids 3D –matt: That’s Robert Rodriguez, isn’t it? –max: Yeah, the guy who directed Battle Angel Alita, Bizarrely –matt: I never saw that –max: it’s okay. –matt: He also directed I think From Dusk till Dawn –max: Well we met someone who was in that film –matt: we did. –max: Yeah, Fred Williams –matt: Fred Williamson That was a fascinating experience –max: What a guy. That guy’s great. –matt: Yeah, he was funny, man. –max: He was very very funny and also –matt: he had a great sense of humor –max: I remember I went up to him and talked to him and like I had no idea he played football like professionally –matt: Yeah he played in the first Super Bowl –max: which is like yeah, here’s my Super Bowl ring I’m wearing it.–matt: Right which is interesting because he was on the team that lost Usually they don’t have Super Bowl rings, but I think he just got one made.–max: just made one There’s one video of the first Super Bowl some guy had some early recorder thing and recorded it off his television –matt: I thought for a second you’re talking about the other recorder, you know [imitates recorder noises] the ones they made you learn in like fourth grade –max: He somehow, I don’t know if he recorded it on tape or if he just pointed a camera at the screen and filmed it but he has video of it and he keeps trying to sell it to the NFL but the NFL keeps low-balling him. So it’s not released yet –matt: How old? this guy must be in his 70s? –max: Yeah maybe he’ll die and his kid will sell it because they’re like ‘who cares?’ –matt: But but he actually is the only person who has a recording of the first Super Bowl –max: Yeah, like I think the whole thing –matt: like they didn’t the NFL didn’t film it at the time? –max: I don’t think so –matt: I guess they would have broadcast it –max: Yeah –matt: not have filmed it. –max: Cuz there’s a lot of lost media out there like there’s no… I totally don’t care about Doctor Who, but there’s a bunch of Doctor Who episodes that are lost forever All they have are that the audio Cuz like for some reason somebody took out a tape recorder and recorded the episode so they can listen to it later or whatever So like –matt: it kind of defeats the point, doesn’t it? –max: Well, just use your imagination, man –matt: That’s like saying I wanted to listen to Star Wars later. So I just recorded –max: The audiobook version of Star Wars –matt: I’m gonna record the movie The Artists on this this on this tape recorder –max: My favourite Buster Keaton film. I love that soundtrack –matt: Keystone cops –max: There’s an animator, I think his name is OtaKing He animated Doctor Who episodes that don’t exist other than audio So it’s like an animation but it’s like like a stand-in for the footage. They don’t have –matt: Interesting. Yeah, that’s very interesting Well, I know with with silent films there’s a ton that are lost. –max: Yeah like –matt: they’re not preserved –max: There’s whole scenes of Metropolis that are still not found because people would get this two and half hour movie and like “screw that, nope. ” Cut this cut that. People are gonna get bored so I got a short in the movie by 30 minutes or like to conform to like censorship stuff. Oh, there’s nudity here There’s kissing here. We can’t show that you know that kind of thing –matt: interesting I know it’s interesting a lot of movies from the ’30s and ‘ 40s are actually in the public domain some of them –max: Yeah, it’s awesome. –matt: Like It’s a Wonderful Life. –max: Really? –matt: Yeah –max: that’s awesome –matt: Yeah, that’s why… actually interesting thing… why it became a classic Christmas movie. Is that it did okay I think when it first came out in that in the ’60s or ’70s or whenever the copyright was due to be renewed by whoever made it like fox or paramount or whatever. they didn’t. They like either forgot, or like didn’t care, so they didn’t renew the copyright. So it entered the public domain and then so these TV stations were looking for something to show at Christmas and like “what’s a Christmas film?” “Oh wait. This is in public domain” “We don’t have to pay any royalties or anything on this we’ve enough to pay no fees we can just play this” I think after that companies have been much better about upping it, but I’m pretty sure there’s other stuff from there, too –max: Well Disney, Disney keeps rewriting copyright law so that Mickey Mouse will not be in the public domain They keep changing stuff around. So yeah, it’s a little bit different these days There’s a documentary on Netflix. I believe it’s called “Four Came Back”, or maybe it’s “Five Came Back” I can’t remember –matt: I think it was “Five Came Back” –max: “Five Came Back’. It’s pretty good It talks about –matt: I never saw it –max: talks about Hollywood and directors during the Second World War and Frank Capra is one of the …–matt: yes directors and he directed It’s A Wonderful Life –max: Yeah, and the guy who’s enthusiastically talking about what a great director he is is Guillermo del Toro –matt: Huh –max: Star of the video game Death Stranding. –matt: Yeah. –max: Yes –matt: Star of Blade 2 –max: Blade 2 –max: I bought the blu-ray for Blade 2 and there’s a bunch of behind the scenes stuff on it –matt: does it explain why he does that weird goofy, moving around thing in one of the scenes. where he’s like, he doesn’t seem like real, the CGI went like haywire –max: oh, right where like his head’s like all looks like a PlayStation 2 cutscene. –matt: Yeah, exactly –max: It does not explain that, but it does show you the making of they get Kris Kristofferson and make a mold out of his body So like when blade opens up the blood tank and he’s floating in it. That’s not Kris Kristofferson. That’s like a gelatin dummy or whatever with a wig –matt: well i figured not Let’s seal you inside of this thing. But it’s so funny there’s this weird lookin kris kristofferson dummy that they like have to airbrush and put a wig on and stuff. It’s pretty cool –matt: That’s a bit strange –max: yeah –matt: Kris Kristofferson Rhodes Scholar –max: is that right? –matt: mmhmm –max: Huh –matt: yeah max: which road though? I’m wondering. That’s a joke –matt: Now that he’s a Rhodes Scholar, now in his mind he secretly has Cecil Rhodes’ Agenda burned into his brain, whether he wants it or not –max: He wants to put a telegraph wire from the [both say] from the Cape to Cairo –matt: He’s like I just really want to go from Cape Town to Cairo –max: I just for some reason –matt: but not by plane! –max: right –matt: by train –max: and I want to go Spend extra amount of time in Zimbabwe for some reason. I don’t know why –matt: Yeah, you’re like –max: this place calls to me. –matt: You’re like, “Harare?” this feels more like a “Salisbury” –max: oh boy –matt: he’s like my favorite character in any movie is the guy Leonardo DiCaprio plays in … –max: oh Blood Diamond –matt: cuz he’s from Rhodesia –max: “I’m here to see Major Zero” “the big boom-boom AK47 ” the weird accent he does in that movie? –matt: yeah apparently that’s actually a pretty good Rhodesian accent. –max: Really? –matt: Yeah –matt: I mean, I don’t really know but –max: yeah, it’s been so long since you’ve been to Rhodesia. –matt: I know right? –max: Yeah That’s an okay movie that’s a good film –matt: one of my favourite facts about modern Zimbabwe Is that their way of fixing their crisis with their currency is they just abandoned it and started to use other currencies like they used the rand, South African Rand, and the American dollar They’re just like ‘No more Zimbabwean dollars. like we don’t accept this anymore.’ Like that’s a great way to… I love that That’s how we’re gonna get rid of –max: huh –matt: this bad money is say: “we…it can’t be used anymore” –max: Well in India, they did something a little bit like that where I don’t remember the exact details of it But I think they were trying to crack down on either counterfeiting or some kind of smuggling or whatever and They just blanket said “If the serial number on your bill is before this, it’s invalid” It doesn’t work anymore. You have 48 hours notice –matt: [robot voice] You have 48 hours –max: So weird, yeah somehow it was supposed to get rid of corruption. I don’t really understand it exactly –matt: I do know several countries in South and Central America, for sure Ecuador, and I think maybe is it Costa Rica? Just use the American dollar. I love how Ecuador which is not a country that’s entirely friendly to the United States It’s just like we use the US dollar. –max: Well, isn’t that where what’s-his-face the the WikiLeaks guy? He was hiding at the Ecuadorian Embassy? –matt: yeah in London in fact I walked by at one point the building he was in and I looked up to see if I could see him –max: Could you –matt: I didn’t unfortunately. I would’ve waved at him if I did. Just be like “oh, hi” –max: Hi –matt: That was not that long after he’d gone in and then he was in there seven years before they revoked his status and the British police could go and arrest him. –max: What’s up with him? What’s happening? –matt: I think he’s still in extradition procedures from the UK –max: Also what is his name? –matt: Julian Assange –max: ah there it is –matt: Yeah –matt: also known as Benedict Cumberbatch in a very very bad wig –max: “The Fourth Estate”? –matt: Yeah, “The Fourth Estate” or whatever. I was told it was a terrible movie. Yeah, all I know is I saw the Like the advertisements for it, I’m like “this can’t be good. He looks insane” –max: Benedict He was in some dumb movie –matt: He’s been in a couple ones that aren’t –max: he used to be such a prestigious name and now he’s kind of he’s dropped off somewhat –matt: He still does stuff –max: He was in something really stupid. I can’t remember the …–matt: “The Imitation Game”. –max: No –matt: No, actually that was pretty good –max: no. Yeah. Yeah Turing –matt: That guy was actually weirder than he portrayed him. –max: Really? –matt: Yeah Turing was pretty strange character What other movie? He’s been in a couple ones? That weren’t great. He was Khan in Star Trek… –max: Oh God, that’s right …Into darkness. I don’t like that movie I don’t think it’s… “Beyond”. the next one was way better. –matt: I guess –max: you should check it out. It’s pretty good It’s got um, what’s-her-face the Algerian lady that was in the “Mummy” remake Sofia Boutella. That’s it. Yeah She’s an alien in that movie Make a fine actress. –matt: the Mummy remake. The Mummy… a fine …film –max: A fine something well I think it was, if I remember correctly, Alex Kurtzman And some other guy were like the guys that made that and they’re now the guys in charge of Star Trek right now. Star Trek: Discovery and all that stuff and I think they did “Star Trek: Into Darkness” too –matt: hmm –max: which not a fan of that film It’s so stupid –matt: Peter Weller’s in that movie. –max: Peter Weller is? –matt: yeah from Robocop. –max: Oh, that’s right. Yeah He’s like a section 31 bad guy It’s it’s so weird because the beginning of that movie is like dedicated to the memory of the victims of 9/11 It’s like why what like what what does that have to do with anything? And then at the end of the movie you see that the like starship flying through all these Arcologies which are probably filled with millions of innocent people that are getting killed and it’s like, oh now I understand Okay, that’s why. not a fan of that film The aircraft carrier Foche shows up in the book at one point the French aircraft…–matt: Ferdinand Foche? –max: Ferd? who’s this? –matt: Ferdinand Foche? Marshall Foche? –max: Nope.don’t know him –matt: He was the French leader basically like the Allied commander in the last year of the war. –max: Oh, really? –matt: Mmhmm –max: of like all the Allies? –matt: pretty much yeah –max: Wow. huh –matt: Joseph Joffre was before him and then it became Ferdinand Foche –max: Did Foche live until WWII? –matt: No, I think he died in the ’20s or ’30s. Although he was the one who said “This isn’t a peace. This is an armistice for 20 years” –max: huh –matt: He was actually right to the year.–max: and he doesn’t have the embarrassment of becoming a [Pétain ?]. –matt: That’s, right. Yeah he died a hero, although it’s… I’m trying to think of the major commanders, so Ludendorff died in the ’30s. Hindenburg died in the ’30s. Foche died in the ’20s or ’30s But Pershing and Pétain lived into the ’40s like Pershing died after WWII I think –max: Well until he was murdered by that Mormon extremist. –matt: Oh, that’s right –max: That’s a joke about the Great War series –matt: He lived into his like late 80s. He had a nice tank named after him. –max: Yeah –matt: 26-Pershing –max: maybe… is it the best tank of WWII? –matt: Hmm. I don’t know probably not the best tank. –max: What is that? Like an IS-2 or IS-3 or something? –matt: The best tank? –max: Is that the best one? –matt: Probably a T-34 –max: Well, Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah for its like role of course, but I mean like…–matt: the best tank? –max: Yeah, like head…–matt: Probably like panth… the panther’s probably like the best combination of firepower, armor, and maneuverability No, my favorite tank is the M3. The Honey –max: The Lee. It’s got so many guns –matt: Oh, no, I was talking to the Stuart. But yes, the Lee even better One gun is good. But two? even better. –max: even better. so many crappy guns –matt: Let’s see if we can ge a
120 millimeter gun into that thing Really good at aiming at enemies who are slightly above you. But not good at moving horizontally –max: What didn’t like the char-B they had–max: Yes, the Char B. That’s what it was based on. –max: That’s a big tank –matt: See I’ve seen one. I’ve stood next to one before they’re gigantic. –max: Yeah –matt: it’s like ridiculous Although my favorite still is that Russian tank the T28 or T35? The one that had like six different turrets –max: It’s like the T100 where it’s just two double stacked one on top of the other –matt: Oh my god –max: so stupid. –matt: Yeah, but keep that armor flat. yeah. very vertical and flat I don’t like sloping –max: bounce right off –matt: that’s right –max: boom boom and it hits them you see –matt: Like a ping-pong, you know Was a Stuart an M3 because the Lee was an M3? or was it an M2? –max: Yeah. There were I think there was I think it was the m2 light tank. –matt: becuz M4’s a Sherman. –max: Yeah, the M4 is the Sherman Is there an M-5? –matt: yeah I dunno And there’s like the M10 the M36 –max: right that… the tank destroyer –matt: I sort of like the Germans had like 1st through like 20th Panzer and then there was the 116th Panzer Division out of like nowhere? it’s like why? –max: make things as confusing as possible.–matt: that’s right –max: Well there’s like over a hundred infantry divisions for the Americans right? –matt: but they actually did have like… roughly there was, were some, for some reasons there wasn’t like the 55th infantry division But there was like the 63rd infantry division. That’s like… what? –max: Is this a better book than SSN? or is it just, not really, kinda the same? –matt: I think it fits within the… I don’t know if one is better than the other I think that they fit in a very specific niche which is ‘If you like fighting’ I think. it’s not… I don’t think this is like the book to really do a lot of social commentary but I think if you want information about tactical stuff that’s the best. –max: Okay. –matt: So this is good. –max: Yeah –matt: this was good talking about this I enjoyed it –max: I’ve always wanted to read a book like this with the whole, you know –matt: you’ve always wanted to read a book –max: I’ve always wanted to but I was too ashamed to admit that I never did until now But yeah, this was a lot of fun. Good on you Tom Clancy. Good on you Larry Bond. You did good. –matt: James Bond’s American cousin –max: Bond, Larry Bond –matt: Well, I think that’s about it –max: I guess is it –matt: Well, this is Matt signing off –max: and this is Max signing off. –matt: Have a good day guys

Comments 92

  • I was watching your last video as this was uploaded

  • Never clicked on a video faster in my life

  • Was already watching a video, but instantly clicked on this once notification popped

  • Only a month in between episodes? My lord is that legal?

  • Im currently trying to get a certain alt history videoseries fir you guys to watch. Ill write when i get more.

  • A talkernate history episode less than a month after the last? A miracle!

  • I love this alternate history story. Got me into Tom Clancy and alternate history. Always off topic as always you two.

  • Never expected to see a Tom Clancy book in this channel, keep it up guys

  • My body is ready

  • Have you considered discussing the alternate future of "Shattered Citadel" the online series?

  • tom clancy is great

  • Damned, I have this book,I'll be back in a week once I finish the bastard.
    EDIT:Nah I can read that later, just lemme go through this real quick.

  • oh man, yes! y'all deserve more subs btw, always classic content!

  • 50 kingfishes heading towards us? Huey Long rises

  • Su-152s did see service into the 1980s but as self propelled artillery only

  • Bring back the German and Austria Monarchies.

  • About time ! I love these!

  • 16:41 someone has been reading Hot War

  • Keep it up, kings.

  • Can we have a discord?

  • My body is ready
    For Tangents

  • New video? New reason to brew up a fine cup of Folgers coffee and to enjoy yet another show about those cooky communists.

  • Ludendorff was killed in 1918 as shown in the great historical movie Wonder Woman

  • 36:58 I see you're going through on the plan to make sure to talk about the Baltic states so that multiple World's Strongest Man champion Žydrūnas Savickas doesn't come after you.

  • As I massive doctor who fan, especially the classic series. I am mildly offended, but I came for the humour and history so whatever…

  • Man in the High Castle season 4?

  • God I loved this book. I was really young, I didnt really understand what the weapon systems were but the human drama carried it for me. Larry Bonds Vortex and Red Phoenix are just as good

  • Yay! You guys are awesome!

  • To be fair, you made the plot sound a lot dumber than it already was. 😀

  • I dunno if there are things written about it but I'd love to see an episode about the Stalin/March note which could have led to the establishment of a neutral, unified German state in/starting in 1952. I think it's interesting to look at a cold war with a neutral Germany as a buffer. Maybe make an episode about comment suggestions and spend a short time on each of them.

  • Always excited when you guys make videos hopefully this is not the last before the Corona virus kills us all

  • I remember hearing that in the Entente Plan 1919, they planned on using bombers to paradrop soldiers into battle in conjunction with massive tank advances with hundreds tanks

  • 11:10 That's ASU-85. Only thing that can be called a self propelled gun that was used by the Soviets up to 70s. It was designed to be used by paratroopers – they would capture an airport and then AN-22s and AN-12 would bring the vehicles. It could not be dropped via parachute like it's predecessor ASU-57. Soviets used them in Afghanistan when their special forces assaulted the presidential palace just before they went in with regular troops. It was eventually replaced by BMD family of vehicles.

  • I read this book. Did not like it.

  • Oh thank god you guys are back!!!
    Can’t wait for tangents lol

  • I hope you guys do Fatherland by Robert Harris sometime.

    Just to let you know, the movie doesn't do the book much justice. Mainly because the movie is a bit rushed and sets the point of divergence in 1944 after the Allies lose at D-Day (sound familiar?) while in the book, the point of divergence is that Operation Blue is successful and that Reinhard Heydrich survives assassination. Not to mention that the book has much more world building.

    What good I can say about the movie is that it looks good for a TV movie. Getting all of those SS uniforms probably wasn't cheap.

  • A true sign of Sino-Soviet relations breaking down, the Chinese tell the Soviets, 'No means No!'

  • Hey if your interested, Maybe you can make us write some short alternate history stories and you review them. It's like a meme review but for alternate history.

  • 18:38. This plan is insane. But just insane enough to work…

  • To be fair the Soviets did have a tendency to pursue very bizarre plans with surprisingly little reason. See Gulag Archipelago. But the plan was pretty absurd.

  • You guys should do Red Army, it’s a NATO-Soviet War from the Soviet perspective

  • So, reason behind the 116th Panzer Divisions jump in name:
    So, German 16th Infantry Division, after the Fall of France, it was motorized and split in 2. 1 part had an added tank regiment and became the 16th Panzer Division (first to reach Stalingrad), the rest formed the 16th Motorized Division.
    And then later in the war, the 16th Motorized was upgraded to an armored division. To carry over the traditions of the unit, it was named the 116th Panzer Division.
    Thats not 100% air tight, but…thats the best I got from what I know.

  • I was working in India on work experience when they got ride of the 500, 1000 notes. It was mild chaos no one had cash for like 3 months , there were massive ques to deposit the old notes in the bank and even roots took 4 months before it got back to normal. It was such a mess because they have 3 hour notice and didn't even tell the banks. Had to wait for 1 hour to get 25 pounds worth of rupees because there was a 25 daily limit

  • Russia tried to give Kaliningrad to Lithuania but they didn't want it because it was full of ethnic Russians. Given Russia's recent attitudes on land in other countries that have "their people" in them, probably a good move.

  • Who here watched Planetes

  • You should check out Arc Light by Eric L Harry if you want a technothriller with a limited nuclear exchange

  • You changed the way you say “history in general” and my disappointment is immense and my day is ruined

  • You guys should look into the 1980s trend of a resurgent Japan, starting with "a Japan that can say no" and books like "The war in 2020"

  • 50 missiles?, Thats a normal Tuesday for the Belkans.

    Also Ace Combat 7 has the whole satellite Warfare aspect to it. It very well executed the chaos and confusion caused by it

  • I liked the book

  • 3:34 We're talking about Tom Clancy here. All the legit tech in the world severs a story contorted to his worldview.

  • I love talkernate history sooo much

  • What do you think of any of the communists Americans timelines. Like the reds!!?

  • You guys didn’t love the cover of “Best Alternate History of the 20th Century” but it really does have some of the better mainstream stuff written. You could do a whole episode on maybe the finest alt. history story ever: Bring On The Jubilee. There’s plenty to pick apart in it though it would be a departure from your mostly military centric stories.

  • I love how you guys can go off on a wild tangent for 20 minutes and then, without warning, just jump back into the main topic of the video


  • The Bob Semple truly is the best tank

  • Potential history and the chieftain are very good channels to watch if your interested in tanks and related technologies

  • I thought the soviets believed once the west knew they were out of fuel they wouldn't sell it to them. That's what forced them to attack?

  • Red Phoenix from Larry Bond is pretty good too, Korean War 2 electric boogaloo

  • 29:39 About the kissing and culture.

  • I own a vinyl record that is literally, Star Wars but it's basically an audiobook. Kinda similar to a radio play. It has dialogue from the actors and some narration.

  • Hey guys you should read "The War in 2020" by Ralph Peter's. It's a work of speculative fiction that explores an alternate history where the Soviet union persists until 2020, but its horribly corrupt and about to collapse in the face of a massive uprising by its islamic population.

    The book mainly details the U.Ss attempt to prop up the Soviets as a part of a wider cold war with a resurgent japan

    It's full of crazy shit, like depictions of wholesale use of chemical weapons in a modern war, a flesh eating plague, and the torture of a computer (I'm fucking serious)

  • Great guys. Tomorrow is my math exam and you upload another episode of my favourite podcast.
    Guess that's one hour less of studying.

  • I'm going to suggest Future war: 198x, a "generally" realistic ova about the cold war going hot in 1988. If you haven't seen it yet I highly suggest it for another cold war video reference!

  • Great episode. A few things. Spoilers follow. 1. Iceland was a legit target for the USSR because it was the middle piece of the GIUK gap which supported the SOSUS line. This was a sonar line acting as a tripwire across the North Sea. 2. The guy trapped on Iceland with the Marines – Edwards? – doesn't really do too much Red Dawnish stuff, though the Soviets think that's what they're doing, with one exception when they tangle with some Russian soldiers who have just killed some civilians. The side plot with the Icelandic girl was perhaps a bit much. Maybe Clancy had a crush on Bjork once upon a time. 3. I think the oil refinery that is destroyed is supposed to be near Manhattan-sized, hence the reason its destruction is so crucial. 4. Clancy more or less copied Hackett's WW3 scenario in "The Third World War". In Hackett's book, the Soviet plot to attack the West is based more on 70's geopolitics: the impression of Western weakness around the world and Soviet supremacy in ground equipment, coupled with some dastardly Soviet meddling – South Africa goes up in revolution as does Mexico – emboldens the Politburo into believing that Western Europe can be cowed if West Germany is swallowed up. Hackett was trying to raise awareness of what he perceived as critical shortcomings of NATO and the UK armed forces. Also, his WW2 experience shows: Britain is attacked from the air – conventionally – the same way it was attacked by the Germans in the Blitz years. I would love to see you guys cover Hackett's book BTW. However, where Hackett depicts the war going nuclear, Clancy does not. Coyle, writing Team Yankee, does Hackett's war point for point including the same nuclear targets. Clancy does give a pretty good reason why chemicals are not used, however [fear of the GDR dropping out of the war if chemical fallout caused huge civilian losses on the 'wrong' side of the border]. Coyle and Hackett have the cork on chemicals fully popped. Short version: Hackett's book pretty much set the template for WW3 stories in the 80's. 5. Finally, about the oil and the nukes: the ending is I suppose a little silly since the West immediately agrees to sell the Russians the oil they needed in the first place. But, FWIW, it's a new non-Soviet government. The young Turks in the Politburo and the Army refuse to resort to nuclear weapons. When the revelation about the Kremlin plot becomes more widely known, the Army actually removes the Soviet government; so, technically, it's a new ball game where the post-Soviet government negotiates the peace, like how Wiemar negotiated the end of WWI.


  • 33:13 Showing M48 Patton's as he says they didn't use M48's XD

    For real, both the Germans and Americans used M48's in Patton. The British used the M24 Chaffee.

  • there is an german pseudo-documentary about ww3 in 1989. High quality and not those history channel action over 9000 stuff.

  • Alternative history where the world is actually a sphere

  • Keep up the good work! I definitely always looking forward to the next episode.

  • Got the book I like it

  • Red storm rising was a Larry Bond book. The only thing Clancy had any input on was the Iceland part. If you ready ANY Larry Bond book this becomes painfully obvious. It follows the same formula as pretty much all of his other books. Clancy's name was put on the cover only for marquee appeal after the success of Hunt for Red October.

  • 56:15 You guys do know about blind people, right? :p

  • If y'all want another good cold war gone hot alt history look up Twilight 2000, it's an older RPG system that was set in a 'apocalypse light' world where NATO and the USSR ground to a halt due to tac nuking.

  • Lets talk about the hole Russia was in pre-war, they had a hole in their liquidity, Crops had almost failed and they had spent a lot of their foreign currency on making up the short fall, this after years of buying in European and American heavy construction supplies to build the Oil & Gas fields and the Refiners as well as the associated Infrastructure, only there was much imbeslment and the good foreign building supplies where diverted to build country mansions for party officials and their mistresses, and substandard domestic materials was used, if the Western materials where used the refinery wouldn't have blown up.

    The War plan was to attack NATO disabling it then find the evidence about the real culprits and then call an armistice, since they already had the Army mobilized they where going to bring to heel some Oil and Gas producing Pact members, NATO now weakened and worried about a round 2 would have kept out of the Pact internal issues, the Ruskies where going to hand back their war gains in exchange for NATO keeping out of USSR going after oil rich and west unfriendly places most ending in "stan". unfortunately not everyone got the Memo on the end game, other old guarders had on such a Boner for taking out the "Counter-Revolutionary" "Capitalist Oppressors of the Proliterate" and thought they could take mainland Europe and the northern half of the middle-east.

  • just a great book

  • This was the first Clancy book I ever read. I enjoy the books unrelated to Ryan that stand alone.

  • FINALLY!!!!!

  • Talkernate History, can you guys do an episode about Robert Harris's Fatherland? It doesn't go into that much detail about how history diverged, but it does go into great detail describing a Europe ruled by Nazis, and I think it's probably the most realistic alternate WW2 novel I've personally read. Would love to hear your take on it!

  • The blueberry jelly bean flavor was made specifically for Ronald Reagan

  • Love to see you guys talk about another Cold War gone Hot but staying conventional with the game World in Conflict.

  • Awesome! I just got the book as a Christmas gift and it’s awesome seeing this video! Thanks guys! SSN is also pretty decent too!

  • Iceland and it's strategically important location was enough of a big deal that it was invaded by Britain in the spring of 1940 (at the same time as Germany was invading France). It was then occupied the USA a year later (6 months before Pearl Harbour and the official entry of the US into WW2).

  • You guys should 100% do an episode on Fear, Loathing and Gumbo. It's loooong, but imo the single best piece of alternate history made

  • Couple points.

    Harpoon, well indeed having been adapted to a computer game, is more famous as a table top war game. Clancy used the Harpoon reference book well writing The Hunt for Red October, and in a 1986 interview at the NSA of all places, notes how useful it was, compared to most more clunky military texts he had access to at the time. He and Larry Bond used the Harpoon tabletop game, to simulate the war at sea shown in the book, hence why he credits Bond with assisting him with the book.

    Ronald Reagan began eating Jellybeans, as a way to quit smoking. When he was to be inaugurated in 1981, Goelitz produced Blueberry, a new flavor, to allow for an American flag display of beans to be present.

    During the Iran-Iraq war, several Iranian AH-1 Super Cobra helicopter gunships, engaged both Hind helicopters, AND at least three MiG-21 fighters.

  • All of our Patreon Piastres going towards buying an SSN in the future?

  • Next idea for talkernate history episode idea the 2020 commission on the North Korean nuclear attack upon the United States

  • can you please do "The Britannia's Fist" Trilogy

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